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	<title>Comments on: It&#8217;s always been about democracy</title>
	<atom:link href="http://greenpolitics.ca/2009/12/its-always-been-about-democracy/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://greenpolitics.ca/2009/12/its-always-been-about-democracy/</link>
	<description>A grassroots view of green politics</description>
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		<title>By: canbyte</title>
		<link>http://greenpolitics.ca/2009/12/its-always-been-about-democracy/comment-page-1/#comment-8554</link>
		<dc:creator>canbyte</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 26 Dec 2009 17:20:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenpolitics.ca/?p=655#comment-8554</guid>
		<description>hooray.  I gotta bookmark this site.  Finally i meet a fellow traveler.  This past month has been rough on me with the Copenhagen Treaty being target of my worries.  Greenies on Treehugger and other sites could not understand, or chose not to, that Clause 38 of the draft treaty undermines democracy in a serious and worrisome way.  So greens refused to acknowledge the threat and ordinary folks could not roust themselves from their lethargy enough to care.  I got it from both sides.  

Methinks part of the problem is success - the green viewpoint is accepted uncritically everywhere, almost.  Greens tend to be young or if not, a bit rebellious, and cannot imagine that folks might actually agree with them on many points (many real environmental problems that humans CAN do something about) while disagreeing on other points (don&#039;t mess with democracy).  Which becomes green gestapo - the desire to force folks to accept direction from greens alone, which ain&#039;t democratic, but which Clause 38 resolves in a negative way.   This thought should be taken further to uncover the roots of the idea that A should dictate to B without compromise.   

Then there was climategate.  Every thread seemed to degenerate into a debate about whether the science is telling the truth, the WHOLE truth and nothing but the truth.  Greens could not accept that just as big oil has a bias, the IPCC also has a bias - in its incentives and in the way it operates.  If greens cannot discuss this openly, we cannot uncover the WHOLE truth.  We accept that justice is served by adversarial courts but cannot the same should be accepted in our investigations of so called climate change.  So, even though i do worry about melting glaciers, i&#039;m sort of forced to become a denier.  

But there&#039;s too much real work to do, too many real problems to solve. The problem now becomes how to persuade ordinary folks turned off by greens extreme/ dogmatic zealotry, to muster the political will to solve all those real problems.  

I look forward to discussions of how this is to be achieved.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>hooray.  I gotta bookmark this site.  Finally i meet a fellow traveler.  This past month has been rough on me with the Copenhagen Treaty being target of my worries.  Greenies on Treehugger and other sites could not understand, or chose not to, that Clause 38 of the draft treaty undermines democracy in a serious and worrisome way.  So greens refused to acknowledge the threat and ordinary folks could not roust themselves from their lethargy enough to care.  I got it from both sides.  </p>
<p>Methinks part of the problem is success &#8211; the green viewpoint is accepted uncritically everywhere, almost.  Greens tend to be young or if not, a bit rebellious, and cannot imagine that folks might actually agree with them on many points (many real environmental problems that humans CAN do something about) while disagreeing on other points (don&#8217;t mess with democracy).  Which becomes green gestapo &#8211; the desire to force folks to accept direction from greens alone, which ain&#8217;t democratic, but which Clause 38 resolves in a negative way.   This thought should be taken further to uncover the roots of the idea that A should dictate to B without compromise.   </p>
<p>Then there was climategate.  Every thread seemed to degenerate into a debate about whether the science is telling the truth, the WHOLE truth and nothing but the truth.  Greens could not accept that just as big oil has a bias, the IPCC also has a bias &#8211; in its incentives and in the way it operates.  If greens cannot discuss this openly, we cannot uncover the WHOLE truth.  We accept that justice is served by adversarial courts but cannot the same should be accepted in our investigations of so called climate change.  So, even though i do worry about melting glaciers, i&#8217;m sort of forced to become a denier.  </p>
<p>But there&#8217;s too much real work to do, too many real problems to solve. The problem now becomes how to persuade ordinary folks turned off by greens extreme/ dogmatic zealotry, to muster the political will to solve all those real problems.  </p>
<p>I look forward to discussions of how this is to be achieved.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://greenpolitics.ca/2009/12/its-always-been-about-democracy/comment-page-1/#comment-7943</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 15 Dec 2009 02:41:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenpolitics.ca/?p=655#comment-7943</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m glad I&#039;m not on the Herzog black list, yet.  

I haven&#039;t had my chance to lead a Green Party, so we will see what the future holds.  Although, I can promise this.  If I ever do lead the Green Party, I&#039;ll make new mistakes instead of the same old ones!

Anyways, look forward to new writings.

-Dan</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m glad I&#8217;m not on the Herzog black list, yet.  </p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t had my chance to lead a Green Party, so we will see what the future holds.  Although, I can promise this.  If I ever do lead the Green Party, I&#8217;ll make new mistakes instead of the same old ones!</p>
<p>Anyways, look forward to new writings.</p>
<p>-Dan</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Hertzog</title>
		<link>http://greenpolitics.ca/2009/12/its-always-been-about-democracy/comment-page-1/#comment-7202</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Hertzog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 03:11:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenpolitics.ca/?p=655#comment-7202</guid>
		<description>Hi Dan,

First, as it&#039;s a compendium, obviously there isn&#039;t anything &quot;new&quot; in it. That&#039;s the nature of a compendium. Sorry about that.

I presented a vision of a different model of decision-making back in 1985, then watched with growing dismay over the years as a succession of self-serving, power-hungry, foolish party &#039;leaders&#039; subverted the visionary basis of Green politics to become the &#039;business-as-usual&#039; sham it is today. 

Of course I don&#039;t &#039;like&#039; them, there&#039;s not much to &#039;like&#039; about them -- as if liking them as people has anything to do with their lack of political vision or the mindless, mainstream, conservative, conventional politics they call Green.

At least I don&#039;t not like you, Dan! Let&#039;s be thankful for small mercies. But you&#039;re missing the point if you think all I&#039;m doing is being just personally negative about the current crop of so-called &#039;Green&#039; politicians as people. It&#039;s their self-serving politics that I dislike -- that&#039;s a big difference.

I&#039;ve constantly pointed to a positive vision of Green politics, but many people don&#039;t understand the positive aspect of criticism. You have to tear away the rotten overgrowth before the desired harvest can be planted.

But you are pointing to something that does need addressing: I am very negative about the Green electoral movement. I&#039;m beginning to think that I&#039;m wasting my time: Canadian Green parties may be beyond redemption. 

Thanks, Dan! I&#039;ll ponder on what you&#039;ve written. It was nagging at me, too.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Dan,</p>
<p>First, as it&#8217;s a compendium, obviously there isn&#8217;t anything &#8220;new&#8221; in it. That&#8217;s the nature of a compendium. Sorry about that.</p>
<p>I presented a vision of a different model of decision-making back in 1985, then watched with growing dismay over the years as a succession of self-serving, power-hungry, foolish party &#8216;leaders&#8217; subverted the visionary basis of Green politics to become the &#8216;business-as-usual&#8217; sham it is today. </p>
<p>Of course I don&#8217;t &#8216;like&#8217; them, there&#8217;s not much to &#8216;like&#8217; about them &#8212; as if liking them as people has anything to do with their lack of political vision or the mindless, mainstream, conservative, conventional politics they call Green.</p>
<p>At least I don&#8217;t not like you, Dan! Let&#8217;s be thankful for small mercies. But you&#8217;re missing the point if you think all I&#8217;m doing is being just personally negative about the current crop of so-called &#8216;Green&#8217; politicians as people. It&#8217;s their self-serving politics that I dislike &#8212; that&#8217;s a big difference.</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve constantly pointed to a positive vision of Green politics, but many people don&#8217;t understand the positive aspect of criticism. You have to tear away the rotten overgrowth before the desired harvest can be planted.</p>
<p>But you are pointing to something that does need addressing: I am very negative about the Green electoral movement. I&#8217;m beginning to think that I&#8217;m wasting my time: Canadian Green parties may be beyond redemption. </p>
<p>Thanks, Dan! I&#8217;ll ponder on what you&#8217;ve written. It was nagging at me, too.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Dan</title>
		<link>http://greenpolitics.ca/2009/12/its-always-been-about-democracy/comment-page-1/#comment-7200</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 04 Dec 2009 02:37:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenpolitics.ca/?p=655#comment-7200</guid>
		<description>Is there any new material in this?  

I&#039;ve been reading your blog for the last two years, and while you has a few good posts early on, for the most part it has been critical, without being constructive.  

Is it:
Look this is what democracy should be, look at how this country engages its people, this is a different model of decision making, and this is how consensus works.  This is what makes a good leader.

Or is it.

Preface:

Why I don&#039;t like Adriane Carr
Why I don&#039;t like Christopher Bennett
Why I don&#039;t like the leadership race.
Why I don&#039;t like Green council and Roy Ball
Why I don&#039;t like Jane Sterk
Why I don&#039;t like Elizabeth May
Why I don&#039;t like Elizabeth May book
Why I don&#039;t like Elizabeth May other book
Why I don&#039;t like STV.
Why I don&#039;t like Elizabeth May and ran against her.
Why I don&#039;t like Elizabeth May and filed an election complaint.

Really.. 

you should look back at your june 2007 posts .. you started off on the right path..</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there any new material in this?  </p>
<p>I&#8217;ve been reading your blog for the last two years, and while you has a few good posts early on, for the most part it has been critical, without being constructive.  </p>
<p>Is it:<br />
Look this is what democracy should be, look at how this country engages its people, this is a different model of decision making, and this is how consensus works.  This is what makes a good leader.</p>
<p>Or is it.</p>
<p>Preface:</p>
<p>Why I don&#8217;t like Adriane Carr<br />
Why I don&#8217;t like Christopher Bennett<br />
Why I don&#8217;t like the leadership race.<br />
Why I don&#8217;t like Green council and Roy Ball<br />
Why I don&#8217;t like Jane Sterk<br />
Why I don&#8217;t like Elizabeth May<br />
Why I don&#8217;t like Elizabeth May book<br />
Why I don&#8217;t like Elizabeth May other book<br />
Why I don&#8217;t like STV.<br />
Why I don&#8217;t like Elizabeth May and ran against her.<br />
Why I don&#8217;t like Elizabeth May and filed an election complaint.</p>
<p>Really.. </p>
<p>you should look back at your june 2007 posts .. you started off on the right path..</p>
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