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	<title>Comments on: Can Green Parties Stay Green?</title>
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	<link>http://greenpolitics.ca/2008/09/can-green-parties-stay-green/</link>
	<description>A grassroots view of green politics</description>
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		<title>By: R.A. LeBlanc</title>
		<link>http://greenpolitics.ca/2008/09/can-green-parties-stay-green/comment-page-1/#comment-512</link>
		<dc:creator>R.A. LeBlanc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:59:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenpolitics.ca/?p=173#comment-512</guid>
		<description>I guess perhaps what I should have said about rabble.ca is that I find the site too &quot;busy&quot;.  But, I&#039;m no web-designer so I digress.

With respect, suggesting in an election platform document that rather than earning a lving apart from her male partner, a woman might consider taking up arts and crafts is not at all socially just.  Unless of course we see the advancement of women as being part of the Old Left.

While I agree that the battle lines are changing, the fundamental schisms amongst those who consider themselves to be on the left (or anti-global/anti-corporatist if you prefer) are still there.  Class, race and gender are still the primary drivers behind the movement.  The light of criticism needs to be cast on the GPC&#039;s eagerness to ignore two out of three of these with its Income Splitting policy.  I say this risking an image of being on a single issue crusade.

I didn&#039;t say May was responsible for moving the party to the right, rather that I believe that she bears some respnsibility. As party leader she should.

She&#039;s also in the fortunate position to not have her personal views scrutinized too closely.  But I wonder what will happen when the support begins to climb.  If I were her I would give Stockwell Day a call to find out &quot;What Not To Answer&quot; (or Wear...poor old Stock).

And again, and perhaps most importantly, I press these two points that perhaps go more toward the democratic nature of the party rather than its ideological soul searching:

What of apathetic &quot;I&#039;ll just vote Green&quot; votes.  In May&#039;s Writ Day stump speech she almost went there, saying something to the effect of &#039;get engaged&#039; but she stopped short of addressing it.  Choosing instead to tell us not to watch the US election.

Also I believe it&#039;s important for the GPC to align itself on the Canadian political spectrum as Canadians understand it.  This complicity (and refreshingly Stuart you don&#039;t demonstrate it) with being labelled on the left must stop.

Maybe though, that responsibility shouldn&#039;t lie with May or the GPC.  Maybe it lies with the other parties aligned on our spectrum.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess perhaps what I should have said about rabble.ca is that I find the site too &#8220;busy&#8221;.  But, I&#8217;m no web-designer so I digress.</p>
<p>With respect, suggesting in an election platform document that rather than earning a lving apart from her male partner, a woman might consider taking up arts and crafts is not at all socially just.  Unless of course we see the advancement of women as being part of the Old Left.</p>
<p>While I agree that the battle lines are changing, the fundamental schisms amongst those who consider themselves to be on the left (or anti-global/anti-corporatist if you prefer) are still there.  Class, race and gender are still the primary drivers behind the movement.  The light of criticism needs to be cast on the GPC&#8217;s eagerness to ignore two out of three of these with its Income Splitting policy.  I say this risking an image of being on a single issue crusade.</p>
<p>I didn&#8217;t say May was responsible for moving the party to the right, rather that I believe that she bears some respnsibility. As party leader she should.</p>
<p>She&#8217;s also in the fortunate position to not have her personal views scrutinized too closely.  But I wonder what will happen when the support begins to climb.  If I were her I would give Stockwell Day a call to find out &#8220;What Not To Answer&#8221; (or Wear&#8230;poor old Stock).</p>
<p>And again, and perhaps most importantly, I press these two points that perhaps go more toward the democratic nature of the party rather than its ideological soul searching:</p>
<p>What of apathetic &#8220;I&#8217;ll just vote Green&#8221; votes.  In May&#8217;s Writ Day stump speech she almost went there, saying something to the effect of &#8216;get engaged&#8217; but she stopped short of addressing it.  Choosing instead to tell us not to watch the US election.</p>
<p>Also I believe it&#8217;s important for the GPC to align itself on the Canadian political spectrum as Canadians understand it.  This complicity (and refreshingly Stuart you don&#8217;t demonstrate it) with being labelled on the left must stop.</p>
<p>Maybe though, that responsibility shouldn&#8217;t lie with May or the GPC.  Maybe it lies with the other parties aligned on our spectrum.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Hertzog</title>
		<link>http://greenpolitics.ca/2008/09/can-green-parties-stay-green/comment-page-1/#comment-511</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Hertzog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 19:10:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenpolitics.ca/?p=173#comment-511</guid>
		<description>Rabble.ca is an excellent Canadian discussion site with intelligent writers. It&#8217;s very much worth reading regularly. As far as I can gather it receives support from the Canadian union movement, making it strongly pro-NDP.

I&#8217;m not sure that Elizabeth May is responsible for turning the Greens away from social justice as you suggest. It&#8217;s there, but the dominant tendency in the Green party is to approach it from a right of centre perspective.

Rather than Left vs. Right, I think that the internal battle is between those who have internalised a corporatist mentality and those who identify with the anti-global movement, which is anti-corporatist. By and large, the Old Left has been eliminated from Canadian politics. History moves on and the battle lines change.

By the way, you can Reply to a specific comment by clicking on the &lt;em&gt;(Reply)&lt;/em&gt; link beside the comment title, or selecting it in the drop-down menu below the comment window. Then the comments are nested nicely.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rabble.ca is an excellent Canadian discussion site with intelligent writers. It&rsquo;s very much worth reading regularly. As far as I can gather it receives support from the Canadian union movement, making it strongly pro-NDP.</p>
<p>I&rsquo;m not sure that Elizabeth May is responsible for turning the Greens away from social justice as you suggest. It&rsquo;s there, but the dominant tendency in the Green party is to approach it from a right of centre perspective.</p>
<p>Rather than Left vs. Right, I think that the internal battle is between those who have internalised a corporatist mentality and those who identify with the anti-global movement, which is anti-corporatist. By and large, the Old Left has been eliminated from Canadian politics. History moves on and the battle lines change.</p>
<p>By the way, you can Reply to a specific comment by clicking on the <em>(Reply)</em> link beside the comment title, or selecting it in the drop-down menu below the comment window. Then the comments are nested nicely.</p>
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		<title>By: R.A. LeBlanc</title>
		<link>http://greenpolitics.ca/2008/09/can-green-parties-stay-green/comment-page-1/#comment-510</link>
		<dc:creator>R.A. LeBlanc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 18:43:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenpolitics.ca/?p=173#comment-510</guid>
		<description>Ya know something Stuart, your article is so familiar I think it may very well have been the first bit of reading I&#039;ve ever done on the subject.  Thanks for pointing me to it.  I don&#039;t visit rabble.ca as often as I should.  The Ads and Banners are a big turn off for me, but it does show they have a heck of a sales team there.

Right Centrist?  Is it not then incumbent on the party to make this clear to voters? Rather than slyly rely on support (and read $1.75 a vote here) from people who believe otherwise.  Also, that scourge of apathy I wrote of.  The &quot;None of the Above&quot; support, that seems to swing the GPC&#039;s way.  It&#039;s a factor that is never addressed in the discourse, mainstream or otherwise, and it should be.

On May.  Does she not bear some responsibility for continuing to turn the Greens away from social justice?  Her personal views are problematic, and she is perhaps worse than Harris for complicity in the labelling of the GPC as &quot;leftist&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ya know something Stuart, your article is so familiar I think it may very well have been the first bit of reading I&#8217;ve ever done on the subject.  Thanks for pointing me to it.  I don&#8217;t visit rabble.ca as often as I should.  The Ads and Banners are a big turn off for me, but it does show they have a heck of a sales team there.</p>
<p>Right Centrist?  Is it not then incumbent on the party to make this clear to voters? Rather than slyly rely on support (and read $1.75 a vote here) from people who believe otherwise.  Also, that scourge of apathy I wrote of.  The &#8220;None of the Above&#8221; support, that seems to swing the GPC&#8217;s way.  It&#8217;s a factor that is never addressed in the discourse, mainstream or otherwise, and it should be.</p>
<p>On May.  Does she not bear some responsibility for continuing to turn the Greens away from social justice?  Her personal views are problematic, and she is perhaps worse than Harris for complicity in the labelling of the GPC as &#8220;leftist&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Hertzog</title>
		<link>http://greenpolitics.ca/2008/09/can-green-parties-stay-green/comment-page-1/#comment-508</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Hertzog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 17:07:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenpolitics.ca/?p=173#comment-508</guid>
		<description>I agree with you about Jim Harris, Rob. I think that essentially he&#8217;s a corporatist. I wrote about him on rabble.ca at:

http://www.rabble.ca/aa/go2.php3?sh_itm=b5e11c862a88da8826b0248743b6cb76&amp;type=fed&amp;url=http://www.rabble.ca/news_full_story.shtml&amp;external=

Long URL!  And yes, the Greens are spotty on social justice, largely because most of the newer Greens are disaffected Liberals or dispossessed Red Tories. Canada&#8217;s Greens are Right-centrist, with some progressive views.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree with you about Jim Harris, Rob. I think that essentially he&rsquo;s a corporatist. I wrote about him on rabble.ca at:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.rabble.ca/aa/go2.php3?sh_itm=b5e11c862a88da8826b0248743b6cb76&#038;type=fed&#038;url=http://www.rabble.ca/news_full_story.shtml&#038;external=" rel="nofollow">http://www.rabble.ca/aa/go2.php3?sh_itm=b5e11c862a88da8826b0248743b6cb76&#038;type=fed&#038;url=http://www.rabble.ca/news_full_story.shtml&#038;external=</a></p>
<p>Long URL!  And yes, the Greens are spotty on social justice, largely because most of the newer Greens are disaffected Liberals or dispossessed Red Tories. Canada&rsquo;s Greens are Right-centrist, with some progressive views.</p>
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		<title>By: R.A. LeBlanc</title>
		<link>http://greenpolitics.ca/2008/09/can-green-parties-stay-green/comment-page-1/#comment-498</link>
		<dc:creator>R.A. LeBlanc</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Oct 2008 06:03:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenpolitics.ca/?p=173#comment-498</guid>
		<description>I realize I am a little late to this discussion, and I apologize if this post is a duplicate.  I had a late night blunder and wasn&#039;t sure if what I had spent 30 minutes writing made it to your board.

My question is what of Harris and May?

Harris the former Tory and May the former member of Mulroney&#039;s inner circle.

Much of the GPC&#039;s fortunes have been built under these two and they both have coloured pasts and presents when it comes to the left wing support the GPC courts.

Under Harris the GPC was about as far from the International Green movement as it could get.  See this article from the last election:
http://thetyee.ca/Views/2005/12/16/GreensArentGreen/

Under May the GPC has shown it&#039;s spotty on Social Justice isssues.  The biggest spot being the GPC&#039;s embracing of Income Splitting.  A policy that they are apologetic for in the text of their platform.  Even going so far as to acknowledge its effect on the regression of women.

May herself is on the pro-life side of the abortion debate, a fact that may have cost her the by-election in London North-Centre.  Not to mention that the humanist values of the Green movemment run contrary to May&#039;s efforts to become a member of the clergy.

It seems the GPC is willing to sell itself out, not only in its selection of leaders, its momentary and monumental slips into political opportunism, but perhaps more strikingly its complicity with the Canadian media labelling it as &quot;on the left&quot;.  The GPC has also done nothing at all to discourage that scourge of voter apathy that finds the young and the underinformed expressing &quot;I&#039;ll just vote Green...they&#039;re running right?&quot;

I keep waiting for someone to call the GPC to the carpet on these facts.  Layton had his shot when May raised Income Splitting during the debate.  But, alas, the NDP has unfortunately for our democratic process, decided that it wasn&#039;t to its political advantage to have its leader question May on the issue.

Sometimes I feel as though I&#039;m alone in the forest screaming these facts about the GPC and either people don&#039;t want to hear it, don&#039;t care or would rather it just be kept quiet.

I can only hope that a few people read this post, then a few more read it, then a few more start talking about it and then maybe the GPC will be under the scrutiny the Green movement in Canada needs.

Rob,

Sackville, NB</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I realize I am a little late to this discussion, and I apologize if this post is a duplicate.  I had a late night blunder and wasn&#8217;t sure if what I had spent 30 minutes writing made it to your board.</p>
<p>My question is what of Harris and May?</p>
<p>Harris the former Tory and May the former member of Mulroney&#8217;s inner circle.</p>
<p>Much of the GPC&#8217;s fortunes have been built under these two and they both have coloured pasts and presents when it comes to the left wing support the GPC courts.</p>
<p>Under Harris the GPC was about as far from the International Green movement as it could get.  See this article from the last election:<br />
<a href="http://thetyee.ca/Views/2005/12/16/GreensArentGreen/" rel="nofollow">http://thetyee.ca/Views/2005/12/16/GreensArentGreen/</a></p>
<p>Under May the GPC has shown it&#8217;s spotty on Social Justice isssues.  The biggest spot being the GPC&#8217;s embracing of Income Splitting.  A policy that they are apologetic for in the text of their platform.  Even going so far as to acknowledge its effect on the regression of women.</p>
<p>May herself is on the pro-life side of the abortion debate, a fact that may have cost her the by-election in London North-Centre.  Not to mention that the humanist values of the Green movemment run contrary to May&#8217;s efforts to become a member of the clergy.</p>
<p>It seems the GPC is willing to sell itself out, not only in its selection of leaders, its momentary and monumental slips into political opportunism, but perhaps more strikingly its complicity with the Canadian media labelling it as &#8220;on the left&#8221;.  The GPC has also done nothing at all to discourage that scourge of voter apathy that finds the young and the underinformed expressing &#8220;I&#8217;ll just vote Green&#8230;they&#8217;re running right?&#8221;</p>
<p>I keep waiting for someone to call the GPC to the carpet on these facts.  Layton had his shot when May raised Income Splitting during the debate.  But, alas, the NDP has unfortunately for our democratic process, decided that it wasn&#8217;t to its political advantage to have its leader question May on the issue.</p>
<p>Sometimes I feel as though I&#8217;m alone in the forest screaming these facts about the GPC and either people don&#8217;t want to hear it, don&#8217;t care or would rather it just be kept quiet.</p>
<p>I can only hope that a few people read this post, then a few more read it, then a few more start talking about it and then maybe the GPC will be under the scrutiny the Green movement in Canada needs.</p>
<p>Rob,</p>
<p>Sackville, NB</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Hertzog</title>
		<link>http://greenpolitics.ca/2008/09/can-green-parties-stay-green/comment-page-1/#comment-393</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Hertzog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 18:31:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenpolitics.ca/?p=173#comment-393</guid>
		<description>OK &#8212; let&#8217;s agree to differ on our definition of conservatism, and let&#8217;s work together to apply Green principles to come up with real solutions for BC and the world. Wait! Doesn&#8217;t that make us &#233;lite Greens? Where&#8217;s my Smart Car? I need one: my VW Westfalia won&#8217;t fit into my underground parking slot. Anyway, thanks for the discussion, Brian. It was interesting. (ENDS)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>OK &mdash; let&rsquo;s agree to differ on our definition of conservatism, and let&rsquo;s work together to apply Green principles to come up with real solutions for BC and the world. Wait! Doesn&rsquo;t that make us &eacute;lite Greens? Where&rsquo;s my Smart Car? I need one: my VW Westfalia won&rsquo;t fit into my underground parking slot. Anyway, thanks for the discussion, Brian. It was interesting. (ENDS)</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Hertzog</title>
		<link>http://greenpolitics.ca/2008/09/can-green-parties-stay-green/comment-page-1/#comment-392</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Hertzog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 17:44:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenpolitics.ca/?p=173#comment-392</guid>
		<description>Brian! I&#039;m starting to think that you&#8217;re an agent provocateur&lt;em&gt; working to discredit the green movement from the inside. Of course, I may be wrong: you may be a troll or just confused. For a start, the video is a satire (I think South Park is great!); a work of the imagination. It shows only that you have no factual evidence to back up your apparent disdain for those who hold to Green principles. And the book you are promoting is yet another attempt by establishment academics to belittle the environmental and anti-corporate movements through patronising put-downs. If you &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.ca/review/product/0006394914/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&amp;showViewpoints=1&quot; target=&quot;_blank&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;read the reviews&lt;/a&gt; you&#8217;ll find that many of its readers were frustrated by the fact that its authors fell into the same error of non-proof that thus far has undermined your arguments in this thread. Nice try! But no cigar.&lt;/em&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Brian! I&#8217;m starting to think that you&rsquo;re an agent provocateur<em> working to discredit the green movement from the inside. Of course, I may be wrong: you may be a troll or just confused. For a start, the video is a satire (I think South Park is great!); a work of the imagination. It shows only that you have no factual evidence to back up your apparent disdain for those who hold to Green principles. And the book you are promoting is yet another attempt by establishment academics to belittle the environmental and anti-corporate movements through patronising put-downs. If you <a href="http://www.amazon.ca/review/product/0006394914/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?%5Fencoding=UTF8&#038;showViewpoints=1" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">read the reviews</a> you&rsquo;ll find that many of its readers were frustrated by the fact that its authors fell into the same error of non-proof that thus far has undermined your arguments in this thread. Nice try! But no cigar.</em></p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://greenpolitics.ca/2008/09/can-green-parties-stay-green/comment-page-1/#comment-391</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 17:33:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenpolitics.ca/?p=173#comment-391</guid>
		<description>Stuart, I welcome this exchange with you.. and by no means do I intend to repress either your voice or the work of Greens in the past. I stand by my definition that conservatives conserve the language (laws/contracts/sayings) of the past whereas progressives build on the foundation of the past, looking forward. So perhaps we disagree there.

But I think we can agree that we need to APPLY the Green Principles to REAL SOLUTIONS for British Columbia. Can you agree with me here?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Stuart, I welcome this exchange with you.. and by no means do I intend to repress either your voice or the work of Greens in the past. I stand by my definition that conservatives conserve the language (laws/contracts/sayings) of the past whereas progressives build on the foundation of the past, looking forward. So perhaps we disagree there.</p>
<p>But I think we can agree that we need to APPLY the Green Principles to REAL SOLUTIONS for British Columbia. Can you agree with me here?</p>
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		<title>By: Stuart Hertzog</title>
		<link>http://greenpolitics.ca/2008/09/can-green-parties-stay-green/comment-page-1/#comment-389</link>
		<dc:creator>Stuart Hertzog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 17:26:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenpolitics.ca/?p=173#comment-389</guid>
		<description>No, &#8220;sticking with yesterday&#8217;s language&#8221; is not a definition of conservatism. What you are promoting is modernism, in which the past is glossed over and repressed. It&#8217;s a denial technique. And your reasoning contains a contradiction in that you want to uphold the basic principles of Green politics but you also want to rewrite them, and you deride those who still value them. Can&#8217;t have it both ways, Brian! The principles are good &#8212; hold to them!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>No, &ldquo;sticking with yesterday&rsquo;s language&rdquo; is not a definition of conservatism. What you are promoting is modernism, in which the past is glossed over and repressed. It&rsquo;s a denial technique. And your reasoning contains a contradiction in that you want to uphold the basic principles of Green politics but you also want to rewrite them, and you deride those who still value them. Can&rsquo;t have it both ways, Brian! The principles are good &mdash; hold to them!</p>
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		<title>By: Brian</title>
		<link>http://greenpolitics.ca/2008/09/can-green-parties-stay-green/comment-page-1/#comment-388</link>
		<dc:creator>Brian</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 23 Sep 2008 17:07:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://greenpolitics.ca/?p=173#comment-388</guid>
		<description>For a humorous skewering of Elite Greens, please see:

1) the South Park episode of Smart Car drivers who, rather than filling their city with smog, are now filling their city with smug: &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smug_Alert!&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;wikipedia&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;a href=&quot;http://watch.thecomedynetwork.ca/south-park/season-10/south-park-1002-smug-alert/#clip10558&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;video&lt;/a&gt;

2) the book &quot;Rebel Sell&quot; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.ca/Rebel-Sell-Culture-Cant-Jammed/dp/0006394914/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1222191476&amp;sr=8-1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;available here&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>For a humorous skewering of Elite Greens, please see:</p>
<p>1) the South Park episode of Smart Car drivers who, rather than filling their city with smog, are now filling their city with smug: <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smug_Alert!" rel="nofollow">wikipedia</a>, <a href="http://watch.thecomedynetwork.ca/south-park/season-10/south-park-1002-smug-alert/#clip10558" rel="nofollow">video</a></p>
<p>2) the book &#8220;Rebel Sell&#8221; <a href="http://www.amazon.ca/Rebel-Sell-Culture-Cant-Jammed/dp/0006394914/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&#038;s=books&#038;qid=1222191476&#038;sr=8-1" rel="nofollow">available here</a></p>
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